Conversation: SAD ASIAN GIRLS
Interview by Chi Siegel
This interview was originally published in Issue #3 “LIGHT (阴)”. Read it now on BLURB.
Esther Fan and Olivia Park, current seniors at the Rhode Island School for Design (RISD), founded Sad Asian Girls (SAG) as a duo, in order to carve out a creative space for Asian femmes and encourage them to break out of the stereotypical mold prescribed by others. I met Esther and Olivia in person in Yale’s underground library, where they gave a casual graphic design workshop to other Asian creatives. The way they shared their expertise along with the constructive criticism they gave the attendees was reminiscent of the SAG brand and style: they’d package their thoughts into seemingly simplistic bundles or iconography, yet the underlying messages contained within were fresh, completely accessible, and totally effective. I had the chance to chat with them in November over Skype about Asian femme identity, as well as their current and future plans as a collective.
Chi Siegel: So just to start out, how did you two meet? How did SAG get started?
Olivia Park: We met essentially through classes, and then while working together on non-SAG related projects, we noticed similarities regarding our identities, and through that we decided to make work related to the Asian femme experience.
Esther Fan: We both realized that we both seemed to be the few students in our department interested in social issues or making work about it, and also the first time we collaborated it was about millennial culture, and then we moved on to things more specific to ourselves.
CS: So, the “Asian femme experience” — could you talk more about what you define that as, and what you find unique to the Asian femme identity versus Asians in general?
EF: I think at the moment there is a lot of talk about feminism and the various experiences that women have in a mostly male dominated society. Once you add Asian to that label, the experience is narrowed down, yet the experience is still so common.
OP: One thing that is unique is invisibility of Asian presence, especially in media, and healthcare in general, specifically mental health awareness — almost everything. We’re kind of just not regarded. On the one hand, I understand, because we’re only 5% or 6% of the population [in America], but we still are part of the population, and we’re the fastest growing, so America just really needs to be aware at this point.
EF: I remember what I was going to say now. I think the experience of an Asian femme is so specific because the expectations put on women in Asian culture is quite different from the western expectations of women. It’s still similar in the fact that we need to be secondary to men and things like that, and also it depends on each family. But for us, both of our parents were or are still Christian and conservative, and the kind of things that they try to teach us in how to be a perfect woman and be the perfect “wife-y package” contributed a lot to us trying to tell our stories about Asian femmes.
CS: I definitely know what you mean. When it comes to western versus eastern as a binary — even though I think calling it an absolute binary can be quite harmful — in general, the experience for women is very different. As you know, Sine Theta is specifically by and for those experiencing the Sino diaspora. How does the more unique experience of being part of a diaspora shaped or informed your art, on an individual level or in your collaborated projects?
OP: There are so many moments where we have identity crises. It just becomes more and more important to find something to hold onto and identify with, and so things like food become a cultural recognition and almost an awakening, and conversations happen through those moments. The “Have You Eaten?” video was a lot about the conversations we would have [with our families], and a way to have that initiated was by eating the food of our motherland.
CS: I wanted to ask you guys about specifically the name “Sad Asian Girls.” I get the Asian girls part, that’s pretty obvious. I was wondering if you could talk about the inspiration behind “sad” and why you settled on SAG.
EF: It really started off just as having to think of a name really quickly so we could make a YouTube account to upload the [“Have You Eaten?”] video. It was a parody of the “sad girls club” that happens on Tumblr, and it seemed natural. Over time, when we gained a following, it started to take on a meaning of its own. In a later video, we mentioned that the term “Sad” could refer to the frustrations of having to live with both our parents’ cultures and western cultures, and the type of identity crisis that usually comes with that. Now, we just kind of kept the term sad and Asian, for consistency, and it’s kind of created an identity of its own.
CS: What sort of identity would that be? Also, as for the “identity crisis,” do you think sadness is a part of what causes the crisis, or a result of it?
EF: Maybe both, but probably more so a result of it. We’re born into having to juggle between two different identities. I think when people hear SAG, it sounds like something they can resonate with, usually more ironically than seriously.
OP: I also think the name has done a lot for us. You almost immediately get an idea of what we’re about. If we were called the “Asian Student Art Collective” that might just sound like we’re trying to foster a community of neutral art that could be even purely aesthetic. But SAG says something that signals oppression, something that signals hurt, and I think that’s where the root of our work comes from. It’s from the hurt. At the same time, if you look at our work, it’s about being proactive and storing that sadness into something positive.
CS: Sometimes within activism against oppression, it can be difficult to maintain a certain level of sadness or anger, because it gets tiring…I’ve experienced this in some activist circles, that as you move forward it can be harder and harder to maintain emotional momentum.
OP: So you’re asking, how do we feel motivated to do things despite sad-
ness?
CS: That’s definitely part of it. And with “Sad” in your name, how is
“sadness” maintained in your art? Does that ever get tiring?
EF: The thing is, being a marginalized group, and this goes for any marginalized group, things aren’t ever wholly resolved. We can make progress little by little, but there is always going to be something else that is making us “sad.” In terms of a resolution for sadness, simply use that sadness as a tool or a motivation for making, a fuel for making activist art. It sounds kind of pessimistic, but without sadness and without frustration and things like that, there wouldn’t be powerful art. The strongest pieces that work come from hardships. So to answer your question as best as I can, every project that we make is based on an existing issue in the world that makes us “sad.”
The strongest pieces that work come from hardships…every project that we make is based on an existing issue in the world that makes us “sad.”
OP: I think also that our visuals matter a lot. If we were to use a grungy filter with blue and green it might appear to be a little more soft, mellow, kind of like “Flickr-artsy.” But we intentionally use high contrast. We blow up our typography, we use bold reds. Our site is like 255 RGB red. We always use 255 because that’s the brightest red the computer’s got so we’re go- ing to use it. We also changed our typeface to Noto, which is Google’s free typeface that can be translated into every language. These are all very intentional design choices that we’ve made and it’s loud and it’s clear and it’s sad. Some people have said that our visual language comes off as more angry than sad, but anger to me is a more intensified form of sadness. Anger is what results when you experience sadness with no resolution. I think it’s fitting.
Some people have said that [we] come off as more angry than sad…Anger is what results when you experience sadness with no resolution. I think it’s fitting.
ES: This issue’s theme is “Light,” and we’re going with that as also talking about the Chinese concepts yin and yang, and the tons of meaning imbued in both yin and yang. Yin has various meanings, but some of the ones that we’re looking at also have to do with femininity, as well as passivity. You mentioned “Sad Asian Girls” was an ironic title you were giving yourselves — how do you go about subverting that title within self-application?
OP: First of all, I think no matter what people are going to interpret it wrong. Some people will. So it’s all about clarity. After repeating ourselves so many times in interviews, we only solidified our stance. At first, I don’t think we explained it well enough or enforced the idea. It’s good to start out strong and confidently and go with that and stand up for it, instead of starting weak and having to explain yourself and have to apologize over and over again, going back to changing your idea or your message. Know what you’re doing. Make it strong, make it unapologetic.
EF: I think transparency is also important. Most people who start out activist work are really excited or really angry and they want to make their content as fast as they can, sometimes without thinking how that’s going to happen or how that’s going to be successful. And I think that’s okay, you need to keep that fire going, but if you do make a mistake or decide that you want to go in a different direction, that has to be clear in your work too, and so that’s why in our presentations and things we’ve kind of discussed our successes and our failures, and why we took a break, things like that. Somebody in my class last night was talking about how a lot of the time when people want to be activists or go to protests or do something, they are really excited and they do too much and they go overboard and there ends up being consequences or it fails or their project doesn’t work, and then that discourages them from doing anything else ever again. But I think after you’re excited it’s important to step back and really think critically about how you’re going to move forward and how to make whatever impact you make last and not be impulsive.
CS: To step back and look more at SAG’s presence as a collective — your site in November said you were in the process of re-branding. What is that process like?
OP: Mostly using accessible typefaces, things that people can get for free. We were using Futura before, and a lot of that typeface some people won’t have, so we thought that everybody should be able to mimic Sad Asian Girls’ vernacular. So we’re basically making it easier for people to copy us and to share the same visuals.
EF: Also making it more legible. We cut down on a lot of text on the website and different sections where everything was displayed out on one page.
OP: We don’t want to look like you have to be an angry tattooed girl.
EF: And that’s why we added that dinky little sad face. It’s a cheeky way of holding onto the sad sentiment but in a way that is still bold. It implies that there’s more that you can do with it. [Rebranding] is more about making projects in the future with the same language. I think once we generate more content with the visual language as the same as our website, with our new logo, the new brand will be more solidified.
CS: What has been your favorite work that you worked on together for SAG?
OP: It’s definitely the next project. We always get super excited about the next project, because every time, we improve. Every project gives us more experience on what we like and what we don’t like, and how to work better or narrow down our process, or things like that. It’s kind of like how your favorite song is the last song you’ve heard.
EF: Nice analogy. Wow.
CS: You guys probably don’t want to spoil what it’s going to be…
OP: It’s probably going to be about the lack of visibility in galleries, which are white spaces. It’s a commentary more specific to the art field and scene. Since we’re both graphic designers and we’re both graduating soon, it’s kind of expected that we immerse into that field. Just seeing the lack of example, and also lack of invitation of femme identities makes us worried or concerned and so we’re kind of making a statement about that.
EF: Being in art school you definitely learn a lot about the art world, and how it’s programmed to benefit white male artists. Our entire curriculum is based on white male artists. The few times that there are female artists, it’s almost in a tokenizing way. Like how the Guerilla Girls did their thing about more women in museums, and last weekend we went to the MOMA just to look around, and they were selling Guerilla Girls’ merch for profit, but we aren’t seeing any more women in museums. Their work was there just for show, basically. I think this upcoming project focuses more on actually trying to inject the Asian femme identity into these faces that are mostly predominantly white, male and old.
CS: Right! One of the topics that I heard come out of the discussion at the Asian American Cultural Center while you were at Yale was the room full of silence whenever an artist makes a work concerning race. Could you elaborate on that?
EF: We talked about how another group in our school, called Black Artists and Designers, made a project called the Room of Silence, which is what happens when a student of color decides to make a project about their race, and the different dynamics that come with that. The room full of silence occurs because nobody else (who isn’t a person of color) knows how to critique it, out of fear of seeming racist or they’re just indifferent, or they just don’t think it applies to them.
OP: This was a video of several interviews of mostly Black students. There were Asian and Latinx students in there too.
EF: It kind of went viral in our school, and some professors showed it to their students. Our professor showed it to us, and I feel like it was again just to show that they know that it exists, and to show that “I’m not like other professors.” They also attempted to have a conversation and at Yale we also talked about how when our class was shown the video, nobody still knew how to talk about it. Some people were falling asleep, some people didn’t watch the whole thing, and the professor said, “Are we done talking about it? Do
you want to move on? Okay…,” and then Olivia got mad about it, and she said, “No, I think you need to force the students to talk about it. It’s such an important thing that’s happening in our school, and you can’t brush it off like a snazzy project.”
OP: And even Esther added on to that conversation, but that was kind of the
end, though.
EF: The last thing I said about that was that I called out one white male student in our class who consistently makes average work, but the professors would always be into it, because his being a white male makes it seem like his work is conceptual and more than it really is. Other students whose English isn’t that great, or who have accents, the professors tend to skip over them because they subconsciously feel like people who have accents are less intelligent, and that’s what I talked about. Even though that video happened, and we also had a protest last year, the school has kind of gone back to the way it was, it kind of seen as those students of color just being angry again.
OP: I think that people do want to make change, but it’s an institution after all, and for an institution to work well while pleasing everyone that is in power right now, there’s not much change that can be done, except for maybe cultural attitudes. That’s what activists and artists are doing right now, to give a voice to who we are and what we want versus what is actually happening.
CS: Could each of you talk about what your favorite thing is when working with the other person?
OP: That’s a good question. Why don’t you go first? [Laughs.]
EF: There’s a lot of things I love, there’s a lot of things I hate. Let’s do that thing from Kindergarten where you say two compliments and one criticism. When we work together, we generate ideas in conversations at the same time, but usually Olivia comes up with better ideas for execution, or places we can go, or like forms that we can use. And then I’m the person who’s doing the tweaks and how to make things say something more clearly. I’m really picky about language, like I need every sentence to say exactly what it needs to say. But I think that’s fine. I think we make a good pair in that sense, where I have things I want to talk about, and sometimes I introduce them to Olivia, and then we sit down and we discuss ideas. We have really different aesthetic tastes, and sometimes we argue over that —
OP: And that’s over stupid stuff, like over whether to make one thing twenty percent desaturated or not. We will fight for a day and I’ll be super petty. Or I’ll come up with a weird idea, and Esther will come up with how to make it more practical, more economical. So I guess Esther really puts it together.
EF: Awww.
OP: I also spend so much fucking time on the Internet that I feel like a lot of things that come up in Internet culture or social media, the different things that people talk about I like to inject in our projects sometimes.
CS: As seniors, what are your plans for graduation, post-graduation? Do you plan on still working together as a collective?
OP: I think that’s a really good question actually. I think we both know that we can’t undo being activist-artists anymore. At first, I really cared about food packaging or whatnot, and I couldn’t give less of a shit right now. So I think we’ll be working closely with the Asian community no matter what we do, or where we end up.
EF: Because we don’t know where we’re going to end up, as in we’re probably going to be in different states or different countries, even if we aren’t able to continue managing this Sad Asian label, I think we still will continue to make work that is relevant to our identities, or at least some type of activist work. When I’ve said this to other friends, that Sad Asian Girls probably isn’t going to be forever, they saw it as this tragic thing. But people don’t need a snazzy name to make activist work. And I think what we’ve been doing so far is encouraging other Asian femmes to continue making work, knowing that we might not continue doing it together. Ideally, people will still make work and not really need a group like us to do it.
OP: It’s also so easy. Executing a project or thinking up ideas is so simple, and I feel like based on what I’ve read about your generation, you guys are so much more active, and you guys care so much more about social issues than previous generations, and that kind of excites me, because I wonder where you guys are going to go with that. Hopefully it’s not the new high school phase, hopefully you all bring that to college with you.
CS: I’ve noticed very recently [during November] on your Instagram there’s been a lot of posts styled after what you’ve just talked about. What was that project?
OP: We went to New York a couple days ago, and there was an event called “Scamming the Patriarchy,” at the New Museum, and a ton of small art collectives got together and made art installations and also talks. Our assignment was to do some kind of Instagram takeover, so we posted one video on the main museum page, and on our Instagram we got submissions from femme creatives in general to send encouraging words to other femmes. We got 90 submissions or so, and we had a lot of positive feedback.
EF: That project again came from an issue that has frustrated a lot of marginalized groups in America. We planned that project as a result of the election. During that time, what people really wanted to hear was not more facts about Trump. They wanted to hear from other people, who were in similar situations, about how to move forward, and also how to take care of yourself and where we can look to at this time. Having so many statements and just bombarding everybody who follows us with those posts also had an effect.
CS: In the same style as the Instagram posts, what sort of advice would you give to other sad Asian femmes right now?
OP: If you have a good idea, try to find the people that would love your idea, and do something with them. Even if it’s just one random small thing that you don’t even know will make a difference, if it reaches out to at least one person, I think it’s so worth it. Just make work, and generate content, and think about the way that you’re going to publish it. The web is an amazing place, and you should take advantage of it.
EF: I probably have less of a place to say anything [post-election], because I’m Canadian, but I do think that in times of turmoil, or in the event of tragic occurrences, it is important to grieve and process what is happening and be around people if that’s what you need (or be alone if that’s what you need). But also keep in mind that staying in that state of depression, not that it doesn’t change anything, but it also will hurt you in the long run. While it is trying to process things and maybe isolate yourself, I think self-care also includes doing something about it, or expressing your thoughts in a productive way that other people can resonate with. And creating community is a really crucial part of self-care.
OP: You are not alone! Don’t forget that.
Θ
Original interview by Chi Siegel. Medium article edited and uploaded by Jessica Ho.
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